How School of Rock Created Structure in Order to Scale with Agility and Creativity

BRIAN KENNY: Welcome to Cold Call, the podcast where we dive deep into the groundbreaking ideas behind Harvard Business School case studies. Today, we’re turning up the volume on a company built on rock and roll, where creativity, individuality, and a bit of rebellion aren’t just encouraged, they’re the business model. But as the company scales, leadership faces a tough question. How do you bring in structure without killing the vibe? How do you get a network of fiercely independent operators to start playing from the same sheet of music? At the heart of the story is a provocative idea that structure done right can actually amplify freedom. But execution is anything but smooth. A new digital platform promises consistency and better outcomes, yet adoption stalls, incentives get louder, metrics start flashing, and still, the band isn’t quite in sync. This case is about finding harmony between freedom and control and what it really takes to get an organization to play together without losing its soul.

Today on Cold Call, we’ll discuss the case School of Rock, tuning into structured empowerment with Professors Tatiana Sandino and Jeffrey Rayport, and case protagonists Rob Price and Stacey Ryan. I’m your host, Brian Kenny, and you’re listening to Cold Call coming to you live from the Spangler Center at Harvard Business School.

Tatiana Sandino’s research examines how organizations use management control systems to ensure the actions and decisions of employees are consistent with the organization’s objectives. She’s also the author of a brand new book called, Structured Empowerment: How to Achieve Growth While Promoting Agility. Congratulations.

TATIANA SANDINO: Thank you.

BRIAN KENNY: Jeffrey Rayport is an authority on information intensive industries, including media and entertainment, retail and financial services. He’s an expert in all things digital who is credited with coining the term viral marketing. That’s so cool.

JEFFREY RAYPORT: In my misspent youth.

BRIAN KENNY: Yes, yeah. We all use that term now. And we’re lucky to have two people here, the protagonists in the case. They lived it, so they’re here to talk about it too. Stacey Ryan is the President of School of Rock where she oversees all administrative and operational functions of the school globally, ensuring the brand’s mission and vision are carried out at every level. At the time of the case, she was the Chief Operating Officer. Rob Price is the CEO of Youth Enrichment Brands, and at the time of the case, he was the CEO of School of Rock. He’s also a graduate of Harvard Business School, but perhaps the most impressive thing about Rob is that he was the founding member of a garage band in high school. What was the name of that band, Rob?

ROB PRICE: It was called The Balance. You probably… We opened for The Beatles.

BRIAN KENNY: Oh, yeah. Wow.

ROB PRICE: They’re just beetles on the ground, The Balance but.

JEFFREY RAYPORT: Rob, I thought it was called The Unbalanced.

ROB PRICE: Yeah. Well, it should have been.

BRIAN KENNY: That’s fabulous. Well, I have to tell you, I’m very excited about this. I’ve been excited about it for a while. We’ve been looking forward to doing another live show and when this case came up, I was really excited because for me, this is kind of personal. And rather than using words, I’ll describe with pictures why I care so much about this case. That’s me in the bottom there at the age of 17, singing in my garage band, and today I’m still performing live music in a cover band so I was really interested in doing this case with you. So thanks for being here. Why don’t we just dive right in? And I’m going to start with the faculty on the panel here. This is a question for each of you, Tatiana and Jeffrey. So maybe you can start, Tatiana, by telling us what are the central issues in the case and why did you think this was a good case to write?

TATIANA SANDINO: All right. I became a big fan of School of Rock before I thought about studying it. The thing that brought me to it is what I’m interested in, which is how understanding how companies scale while remaining entrepreneurial. And it turned out that School of Rock was a great example of this, but when I first approached School of Rock was not with the idea of studying it was because my son who was in middle school and is right there with his School of Rock t-shirt.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah, you’re wearing the brand. That’s awesome.

TATIANA SANDINO: My son was in middle school and he wanted to feel comfortable singing. And so we signed him up to School of Rock and he started with a summer in the summer program where he signed up. I could see the school was giving him a choice to pick a band to be part of. And so he picked The Beatles, and speaking of Beatles, right? And so he was paired, grouped with other kids that were interested in The Beatles. They didn’t know each other. At the end of the week, they were putting up a performance and I was blown away because it was a great performance. It was not just that they were building the skill, but they were also building confidence in the stage. And most of all, they were making this super fun, both for them, the performers, and for us, the parents. And so I was just amazed with the school. Then I started to look at all these videos that you saw at the beginning from YouTube and so on. And I just realized they were spreading this magic at scale, right? There were all these amazing performances, happening all over the place, and so this then connected to my interest of understanding how companies can have this creativity and entrepreneurial kind of spirit at scale.

That was something that was very interesting to me because then I could take a closer look and see how School of Rock was doing this and was… I could see some of the principles that I had seen in other industries, in retail, in consulting, in hospitality and so on, where companies are able to create a structure that is not rigid and that helps companies really operate at scale with a lot of agility and creativity. And so that was what brought me into the case. But I should say also that our co-authors are here, Stacey Straaberg, Sam Grad, and of course Jeffrey, and all of us come with a story to this case. I thought it was like a dream team because everybody is really interested in these same topics of creativity and entrepreneurship.

BRIAN KENNY: Jeffrey, how about you?

JEFFREY RAYPORT: Well, I think it’s fair to say the case was born out of a wonderful collaboration with Tatiana to create a new course here at Harvard Business School called, “Systems for Scaling Ventures,” which was trying to marry what each of us knows a ton about. I spend my time with growth stage businesses, as you now know, Tatiana is an expert in accounting and control systems and what she calls structured empowerment, the subject of her new book.

For me, the big question we were asking was a grand challenged business, which is how, if you have a successful startup, how do you get big without becoming bureaucratic? How do you get big without losing your agility, capacity to innovate, your responsiveness to customers and markets? It’s one of those crazy things that you get funded and you grow because you’re brilliant at something, but what if scale destroys the very things and erases the soul of what made you brilliant?

So she told me about Raphael being in School of Rock. And I said, “Oh my God, my old friend, Rob Price, who I knew from three previous lives when we were both consultants and then he went off to retail fame and became the CMO at CVS and did all kinds of huge things.” And I thought, Rob is the CEO of this company, we can actually put this together. People always ask, where do cases come from? It’s a combination of being strategic and opportunistic, and this was a perfect example.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. And part of what I love about HBS cases can be surprising sometimes, and I think this fits into that category of you wouldn’t think HBS would do a case about School of Rock, but sure enough, there’s a really interesting business lesson to learn about how they operate and how they’ve scaled. Rob, let me turn to you. You walked into a place with an established culture, right? One that already thrived on individuality. What were the issues that you saw as you stepped into that role? Did you see problems that you thought needed to be solved?

ROB PRICE: Well, I think anybody who steps into a new environment should be seeing problems along with opportunities, but there were a substantial share of the former versus the latter. This was a amazing organic concept that is built on the creative passions that are millennia old. So it’s tapping into an extremely deep reserve of soul with the customers and that is also the case in franchising. You’re drawing in people who are making massive investments, betting the farm on the viability of this as both an avocation and vocation, and embedded in that is a lot of emotion as well. You’ve got this swirling, creative, emotional environment, and that it’s like any fuel source. It’s a volatile thing. And if it’s channeled and if it’s contained, it’s something that can create a lot of power. We saw that in a lot of our customer feedback, customer feedback from moms and dads and our students. By the way, he is a great musician, so maybe we’ll get an encore at the end, but the feedback we got from the parents was almost universally incredible, but the feedback we were getting from our franchisees was really, really mixed in terms of the experience of being a franchisee and their sense of being part of the band. And so at its core, that was the cultural vulnerability. Thankfully, the potency of the concept was so strong. In some ways, that’s an easier problem to solve.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. Stacey, you were at the helm in terms of trying to drive some of these changes. What was the scale, how many franchisees were there at the time and what was the relationship like between central and the franchises?

STACEY RYAN: By the time we launched the App, we were probably about 250 franchises about units, right? 250, 300. And the relationship was mending, I’ll say. When Rob joined as CEO, the relationship between the franchisees and headquarters was strained, is the nicest word I can use for that.

BRIAN KENNY: The euphemism was strained.

STACEY RYAN: Yes. And that came from the previous leadership coming in very heavy-handed. School of Rock was born in its DNA, it’s got a stick it to the man mentality. It was born in-

BRIAN KENNY: It’s rock and roll, man.

STACEY RYAN: … opposition of classical music education and your typical and all of a sudden this administration comes in very heavy-handed trying to implement standards and policies and mandates, which were necessary, but the way that it was done was, it was too aggressive and it created this really volatile relationship and pushback. Headquarters is frustrated that they can’t get any traction on these initiatives and movement and franchisees are frustrated because they look at every new initiative as some type of a power grab.

So we were mending. The relationship was mending at that point. We had enough time that we were able to show that this leadership was going to be different and we’re listening and our mantra of maybe they’re right and getting out there and really trying to understand where are the pain points and how can we be better support? And then when the Method App came out with some of these mandates, I think it was a little bit of a whiplash moment for some franchisees where all of a sudden they’re being told to use this tool that the first version of it wasn’t the best version by far. We weren’t fully ready for launch, but we had to launch, and there was just a little bit of that old feeling of you’re telling us we have to do something, but we don’t truly understand the why behind it, and it created the friction again.

BRIAN KENNY: Jeffrey, we’ve talked about Method Approaches before to teaching and learning and other podcasts that we’ve done. Maybe you can describe a little bit about the School of Rock and the method that they use and why it’s been so successful over the years.

JEFFREY RAYPORT: Well, I want to defer to our colleagues, Rob and Stacey, because of course they created this thing. But yeah, the Method App was an attempt to routinize and systematize curriculum. It was really born out of a very significant challenge that Rob inherited when he arrived on the job. I believe Rob, it was day one when one of the music publishers, Hal Leonard, showed up in Rob’s office. Poor Rob, day one, welcome to your new life saying, “Hey, we’re going to come after you for copyright infringement because you’re making illegal use of all of this repertoire, melody, lyrics, et cetera.” All of which was legitimate. And Rob and Stacey are big supporters of artists, obviously, and of their intellectual property rights.

The Method App was one way to distribute a collection of about a thousand copyright cleared songs along with methodology, lesson plans, and a bunch of things that would, in a sense, standardize the educational approach across these 300 schools, the School of Rock runs. What for me is just so fascinating about this is, as Rob was saying a moment ago, last time I checked, rock was about rebellion. It was about burning the house down. And so somebody shows up and says, “Hey, I’ll tell you how to teach.” You’ve got a bunch of people who, as you guys are saying, a bunch of people essentially built their careers as artists, and as artists, therefore as instructors and music, musicians are creative people so how dare anyone tell them how to do it?

So this whole issue of, on one hand, the goal in any franchising business is to build something that supports a common brand so that the experience achieves a certain consistency and level of excellence across all of the franchise units. You need some kind of standardization and consistency to do that, but how do you do that in a creative industry, especially when built around rock, where standardization or getting corporate to show up and tell you how they’re going to help is like anathema to the very soul of what rock music is all about.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. Rob, let me ask you this. Was part of the issue here, things were kind of working, right? Or were you seeing that there was a vast difference in the output, the outcomes at the various schools? I mean, why did you need to create an effort?

ROB PRICE: It was a real mix. I mean, some things were working. The satisfaction was exceptionally high, but one of the things that, not withstanding the fact that it was a rock and roll environment, we still had this sacred responsibility that we’re committing to parents that we’re going to teach their kids musicianship. And as a musician myself, it became very clear to me that while of course going all the way to the traditional mechanisms of scales and arpeggios and music theory-

BRIAN KENNY: Don’t get all technical on us now.

ROB PRICE: Sorry, would be an overreach. It was very clear we did need to have a curriculum. It’s a popular belief that in contemporary music and rock music, that a lot of this is just inspiration from a lightning bolt, but a lot of the greatest musicians were classically trained or were trained with a lot of rigor and we just needed to bring some structure to ensure that the satisfaction was followed up with the proficiency because long term, our objective and our obligation was to create musicians for life, not just create the satisfaction of being able to jam.

That was a real tension and this idea of structure and empowerment, which Tatiana has done such a great job providing a nomenclature about, is we were wrestling with that very question, which is how do we impose sufficient structure so that the product can be consistently delivered? By the way, it wasn’t that we just grew in terms of units, it was geographic. We were opening schools in Brazil and South Africa and Taiwan and it was very critical that we have that continuity, but to provide enough breathing room for the love to be preserved.

BRIAN KENNY: That’s a perfect setup for my question for you, Tatiana. As it relates to structured empowerment, we’ve many times on the podcast talked about globalization versus local and trying to find that balance. Can you talk about structured empowerment and what it means in this context?

TATIANA SANDINO: Yeah. The core of structured empowerment is very much focused on two ideas on how you empower employees. The first one is, and it’s really very much captured on this Method App. The first one is that you don’t want to tell them what to do exactly, but what Rob and Stacey and Sam Dresser as well did very cleverly was that they collected the best shows that they had from throughout the school, throughout the organization globally. Rather, the problem was that every season, each of the schools independently had to put together a group of rock shows to offer to their students so that they could pick what band they wanted to be part of.

And so what they did is there was a lot of improvisation on this. There were the copyright compliance risks related to this. And so what they said is, “Okay, we’re going to replace some of that improvisation and we’re going to put it in a Method App, but we’re not going to tell people exactly what shows to put or what to do.”

But what they did is they created a hundred rock shows that were proven and curated, copyright compliant, along with the thousand songs, and the methods that would go along with teaching those songs. The idea here was that now the music directors and instructors for each school would be able to pick the rock shows that best fit with their students, and then they just had to make sure that they were producing value to the customers, and so they kept very good track of the customer satisfaction, customer retention. And so they were given the tools to put together the rock shows, but they were not imposing what rock shows to put together. That is the idea. The idea of structure empowerment is this set of curated practices that are made available to the employees, and then making them accountable for results and not accountable for how they are doing the work.

This is just taking a step back is relevant for not just School of Rock, it’s for many industries. Anywhere where you have talent that is distributed throughout the organization and you want to make sure that you capture the knowledge that is throughout the organization, you want to capture that knowledge and then make it available to everybody so that those that are the least experienced people in the organization are able to have access to those best practices and apply them so that their performance improves and those that are really experts already and some of the people that might have been more resistant to this, those people should be invited to be part of shaping. For example, this Method App really became a good tool when people were invited, the best employees were invited to contribute and to help with that curation of those best practices to be shared.

BRIAN KENNY: Stacey, you were on the front lines of trying to get people to adopt the Method App. You talked about how the original version probably wasn’t what you were hoping it would be or wasn’t working out the way that you wanted it to. I think that’s true probably in any beta version of a technology. We agonize at Harvard Business School over any new thing that we introduce into the classroom because we want it to be perfect, and of course it never is. And we do that, we take feedback. I’m wondering, what was your approach? How did you take that feedback in, and then how did you play it back into the app to improve upon it?

STACEY RYAN: Yeah. I mean, we took a lot of feedback. It felt like almost every conversation was about the Method App because we took a misstep and we tried a heavy-handed approach and said, “If you don’t have this level of adoption, you don’t get marketing dollars.”

There’s a scorecard approach and we tried to force it on them, but I think one of the real changes came from our lifetime value study, and what we learned was that students who use the Method App actually stayed with School of Rock two times longer. And what we learned is that our performance program students have four times the LTV than our lessons only student. So now we have real data and we have real purpose and we know that our franchisees and our community, their passion is in extending the length of music education in their students’ lives and participating. So we took that approach instead and we said, “Hey, we know it’s not perfect, but you know what we do know is if your students are using it, they’re going to stay longer with School of Rock and they’re going to learn more and music is going to become more a deeper part of their life.”

And just taking that softer approach to them and focusing a little bit more on the why and the results instead of trying to hit this benchmark of an adoption number that’s on a scorecard that we’re going to put out every month and we’re going to grade you on it, it softened it a little bit. And it also allowed us to have the conversations with instructors. We have a full team, we go out, we visit with the schools, we talk with the staff, not just the owners, the instructors. We sit in on lessons and we would ask them the same questions, and them knowing that this isn’t a tool to dictate how you should teach, this tool is to empower you to deepen and maybe teach in some different ways and explore it. So keep doing what you’re doing and know that this is here if you want to upload an assignment that you’ve created, or explore different ways to teach a student this method or give you the list of what songs to go to, and the goal is for it to make your life easier and expand it.

And we took a lot of the feedback, we implemented a lot of those things, that ability to upload their exercises that came straight from feedback. They’re like, “Hey, you give us assignments. We make assignments, can’t we put our own in? And we’re like, “That’s a good point.” So we made that enhancement. So really listening and just changing the approach to how we went about it was a big shift in the mentality. And it no longer felt like this thing that was being forced on them from the big battle of guys at corporate. Now it was like, okay, this thing is available to me to help enhance how I’m teaching and by the way, if I can get my students on it, I think they’ll actually stay with School of Rock a bit longer and have a better experience also.

BRIAN KENNY: I mean, it sounds kind of logical. Do you want to take people’s ideas and then give them a sense of ownership like they have something to do with the creation of the platform and the improvement of the platform. But Tatiana, what does this tell us about the human side of operational change where you try to do this and how much, I mean, if you invite feedback, you have to listen to it, and that makes things more complicated for the headquarters, right?

TATIANA SANDINO: Yeah, definitely. Definitely not more complicated. It makes it this whole thing possible because what people resist to when there’s a new system that is put in place is just this imposition of the system. And especially if people have been working successfully, it may feel even more intrusive. And so what you need to do is to really prove the value. And so for all of these, I think Stacey has described this very well, but when they put this Method App, made it available, I think that the music directors that were putting the shows really took it on very quickly because it was a great value add, right?

BRIAN KENNY: Sure.

TATIANA SANDINO: If you had all these shows and now you pick six, you don’t have to reinvent the wheel. But it was more tougher with the music instructors because some of them had developed their teaching methods over the years and they were successful at doing it so this seemed to be getting on the way. And so again, the people that were, when they were opening a new school and they had new instructors, oh, they were very happy to get the Method App.

BRIAN KENNY: Sure.

TATIANA SANDINO: But when they had to convert somebody that had a lot of experience, that was tough. Those people really were brought in when they were invited to shape the Method App. And as Stacey and Rob did all this great work to prove what was the value of the Method App. And so that is really what makes it successful. I’ve seen this happening in any other organization that is implementing these ideas of structure empowerment, giving curated choices and holding people accountable for results. If they are not doing this with developing these systems with the employees, they’re going to face a lot of resistance. And so the ones that are really successful are the ones that invite all this feedback that Stacey was describing to make it really come to life and have people take ownership of it.

JEFFREY RAYPORT: And this was, Brian, if I can jump in. This was one of the things that was very fun about teaching the case with Rob and Stacey in the classroom was to set up a role play whereas as Tatiana says, for the folks who are new, the Method App is a gift because it gives them all the resources they need to be successful as a teacher in the classroom. I’m saying this with real residents because part of what we do here at HBS, of course, is operate as teachers in a classroom. If somebody comes to you and you’re really good at what you’re doing and say, “Hey, listen, now you’re going to run it on a software platform.” We set up a role play with an experienced instructor who’s a superstar in the system who’s sitting there saying, “Why in the world would I use this when I’m already successful? And by the way, why are they telling me what to do?” The perception that corporate is now trying to program their classes. I find this like the irony is delicious, especially because part of the equity in the name School of Rock came from the 2003 film, which was all about a heroic teacher, but of course, the genius of franchise systems when they work is that you don’t need heroes. Everyone is really good, and they’re consistently good, but that’s hard for the superstars necessarily to accept.

BRIAN KENNY: We did try to get Jack Black to come tonight, he wasn’t available.

ROB PRICE: I think it is important that his procedures in that film would not adhere to our safety policies. I just want that on the record.

JEFFREY RAYPORT: Rob, I think you talked about the sacred trust.

ROB PRICE: Yes, that’s right.

JEFFREY RAYPORT: A few violations there.

BRIAN KENNY: Rob, was there a point at which you thought, okay, we’ve turned the corner on this thing? I mean, it sounds like there was, in the early goings, a lot of work to get people to adopt, but was there a point at which you said, “Okay, that instructor finally started to use it, now we’re onto something?”

ROB PRICE: No, honestly, I think we’re still wrestling with this and I think that there is definitely a point at which I feel like we arrived, we got our story straight, if you will. We locked into our narrative, and I’m going to just build a little bit on what you were saying, Stacey, which is the idea that This combination of structure and empowerment, this tool, this curricular set is a mechanism to advance the musicianship. And then by extension of that, it creates continuity and extends their stay with us, which we all want. But to really, really get down to the heart and soul of the individual musician and structures, the other thing we reminded them is that we’re actually in the mental health business. We’re a medical-

BRIAN KENNY: Very interesting.

ROB PRICE: … provider. We’re a therapeutic provider because that age is a very, very difficult age, and enormous academic pressures, enormous pressures from social media. A lot of solitude, the COVID generation. There’s all these different dimensions that we’re a solve for, and music is just our medicine. So I find that when we finally got those messages together, and then also got the narrative in place where living this principle of maybe they’re right which was, Stacey referred to our mantra. That’s when it became easier to have conversations. You’re still navigating through engagement and enrollment and consistency. And it’s a battle never won, so I don’t think that we have this flywheel running on it, but I do feel like we can have an earnest and authentic and comprehensive and elevated and meaningful conversation with all of our stakeholders about it while it meets our commercial objectives, which we haven’t talked a lot about, but indeed those were at play as well.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. Maybe Stacey, you can talk about those commercial objectives a little bit. I’m also wondering, as the school continues to expand on a global scale, with the cultural differences and all the other things that you encounter there, is it possible to sustain consistency on that kind of a scale in the way that you first envisioned? Or have you started to say, “Now we’ve got to maybe give up on this objective or that objective”?

STACEY RYAN: Yeah. It’s interesting. I spent my whole career in franchising and I always say franchising is this incredibly delicate scale that always has to be in perfect balance between authority and partnership, and always trying to make sure that if the scale tips in one direction, you lean it back towards the other to get it in balance. And international is one of those nuances. And we operate with master franchisees because one thing that we did learn is that we’re not great at international operations because of everything you said. Culture differences, language differences, legalities, tax liabilities, all these things are just very different every country that you go to and we’re not equipped to do that. So we have a master franchisee who owns that country, who lives in that country, lives that culture, that language, understands those legalities there, and then they subfranchise on our behalf.

And we do have our systems that are in place to ensure that there is consistency across. So whether you go to a School of Rock in Columbia or School of Rock in Columbia, South America, or in Ohio or out in Madrid, in Spain, you’re going to get the same program. You’re going to get the same lesson. What may be different though is in the app what language your songs are in. And what may be different is when you walk into the school, some visuals that are on the wall are a little bit different. So we maintain enough requirements, we’ll call it, that the experience and the feel is the same, but we have enough freedom that each one feels a little bit different. Every school you walk into has a little bit of a different feel to that and we love that. That’s part of who we are, we celebrate individuality.

What Rob was talking about is my favorite thing about this organization and it’s not, the music is the cool part. The real part is the saving lives and the music really is our vehicle of doing that. So we pride ourselves on a core value of belonging that everybody belongs. We don’t care about the differences in skin color, hair color, language that we speak. We don’t care about any of that. All we care about is getting on stage and playing some fun music together. And that allows us to maintain consistency in the experience, but individuality in the overall.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. Does that ring true to your thoughts? Because we did a case before about Oxxo, the convenience stores in Mexico, and we talked about that earlier. And it sounds very similar to even what they were doing with Oxxo in a convenience store setting. It sounds like it could apply in any number of settings.

TATIANA SANDINO: Yes, and that was not a franchise setting, but it was very similar where the idea was to empower employees, give them the tools to do the work, but not limit the potential in the upside, right? Let talented people thrive, but ensure that there’s a minimum level of consistency giving people the tools, especially when they’re starting and when they need to figure out how to get the basics.

BRIAN KENNY: Maybe if you could just close this out for us by telling us if there’s one thing you want people to remember about the School of Rock case, what would it be?

TATIANA SANDINO: All right. I think the School of Rock really exemplifies structure empowerment at work. I would say that if you’re thinking about… Both components are really important. If you’re scaling a business without any structure, you’re inviting chaos, or just with structure, you’re inviting rigidity. And so structure empowerment is trying to get that sweet spot where you can scale with agility, and so this is what this book is talking about and it presents a whole framework that includes a lot of this empowering culture and this idea of building these systems with a lot of feedback and with the people in the organization.

BRIAN KENNY: That’s great.

BRIAN KENNY: Rob, Stacey, Tatiana, Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining me on Cold Call.

TATIANA SANDINO: Thank you so much.

JEFFREY RAYPORT: Thank you so much.

BRIAN KENNY: Thank all of you.

BRIAN KENNY: If you enjoy Cold Call, you might like our other podcasts: Climate Rising, Coaching Real Leaders, IdeaCast, Managing the Future of Work, Skydeck, and Think Big, Buy Small. Find them wherever you get your podcasts.

If you have any suggestions or just want to say hello, we want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Thanks again for joining us. I’m your host BRIAN KENNY, and you’ve been listening to Cold Call, an official podcast of Harvard Business School and part of the HBR Podcast Network.