Sérgio Sousa Pinto: "My political ambition is not to assume the leadership of the party."

He's a gardening enthusiast. Does he have roses in his yard? I don't, but last year I tried to start a vegetable garden, and since only one cabbage survived, I decided to convert my vegetable garden into a rose garden this year, replacing the defunct garden. Incidentally, I also had some courgettes that I mysteriously discovered in the middle of the undergrowth. With a surplus of three giant courgettes and a cabbage, I decided to make a rose garden.

Let's imagine you were making a comic book like Spiegelmann's Maus. What animals would represent the Portuguese political leaders? If you don't want to imagine Maus, you can choose another one.

I think it's very good that you cite that masterpiece of comics, in which the Nazis are cats, the Jews are mice, and the Poles are pigs. Obviously, I'm not going to apply any animal to a political leader in a way that could mean anything derogatory about Portuguese politicians. Political life is very tough. And if the people we would like to see aren't there, we could ask ourselves why they aren't.

Let's imagine the Asterix comic book.

The blacksmith Cétautomatix and the fishmonger Ordralfabétix would be the parliamentary leaders.

And what about the party leaders?

One was the bard (laughs), I won't say about the others.

Who was the bard? (laughs)

As Dr. Soares would say, the topic is exhausted. I would have to think more about it, but surely there would be a figure for each one.

Is a bored expression your trademark?

You've known me for at least 30 years, have I changed my environment?

It's become more pronounced. Doesn't your wife tell you that you often look bored watching television?

No, my wife has a theory that I look much better since I met her (laughs).

Have you ever imagined yourself as a social media star, where your videos are constantly popping up? Are you aware of that?

I do, because sometimes suggestions come to me from within. But it's important to clarify that I don't know how to make a single video.

Yes, but we're talking about videos taken from television. Which ones do you think are the most viewed? The one with Lothar Bisky, the former STASI man, where he 'trapped' Rui Tavares? The one where he said that the PCP and BE are excrescences of democracy? The 'wars' with Maria Castello Branco or Ana Sá Lopes? The snide remarks about Luís Montenegro when he went to the Douro to 'rescue' the dead GNR officers? When he told Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa to shut up?

A few days ago, one came up that was about speed cameras. I found it funny to hear about it again. Do you remember the one about speed cameras?

No.

He was explaining that speed cameras are distributed everywhere, not to guarantee road safety, but to fill the state coffers. He was talking about the absurd 50 km/h speed limits, which only exist so that people forget to drive at ridiculous speeds, and are unfairly taxed by the state, which is clearly not a benevolent entity.

When he attacked the PCP, the Bloco, Livre, or PAN, were he bothered in the streets?

No, no, people, in general, are very delicate. When people talk to someone, it's usually to say pleasant things.

And nobody in the party said anything to him?

That was all we needed.

Have you ever been accused of supporting Chega?

No, some people accuse me of being right-wing, but never a member of Chega.

And what about praising Chega?

I can't imagine what I could have said that some destitute person would interpret as praise for Chega. But at this moment, what can be said in defense of Chega? For God's sake, I say nothing in defense of Chega. It's impossible to defend Chega, it's impossible, it's impossible. Now it has decided to dedicate itself to inflaming xenophobic sentiments against vulnerable minorities; we've seen this in history, how is that possible? There's no comparison that can be made with any other Portuguese party at this moment.

What are your thoughts on the latest poll that shows a virtual tie between AD, Chega, and PS?

There is no reason that absolves a rational, adult Portuguese person from voting for Chega, period. Now we have to try to understand the phenomenon, because it exists, and it exists because the country is worse off, people's lives are worse than people think. The austerity discourse is over, the troika discourse is over, the adjustment discourse is over, but political discourse does not reflect the reality of people's lives. People's lives are much harder, there is a feeling of decline. There is a feeling that children will live worse than their parents. There is a feeling that it is impossible to save a penny. There is a feeling that it is impossible to escape the rut. There is a feeling that it is not worth working harder because the State takes everything. There is a feeling of hopelessness. And this generates revolt. And people don't see alternatives in the two major parties, which are the two mainstays, the great pillars of the system, they only see minor changes. Minor differences. We were just talking about this Budget and spending. It doesn't matter if people are right or wrong. There's a very significant part of the country that thinks voting for the Socialist Party (PS) or the Social Democratic Party (PSD) is the same.

So what about room for maneuver for Chega?

People are starting to look for some alternative. Now that ideological discourses have died, there is an alternative for a huge population group that was formerly framed by traditional parties, by the Communist Party, by other parties. These multitudes have transitioned to the discourse that follows against the system. It is against the system, against the harshness of their lives, against the misery of their daily lives, and against the lack of a light at the end of the tunnel. If they see no alternatives within the system, they build a new one, in which one of the poles is outside the system.

And where will this lead us?

It will lead us to ensure that democratic parties are able to adopt political solutions for the country that will lift us out of this sad and dull mediocrity, which I summarize as the country's miserable growth.

But what needs to be done?

It is necessary that the very important portion of the national wealth, which we entrust to the State to manage, be managed efficiently. And not as it is being managed now. We have, for example, the National Health Service, which seems like a leaky bucket. There are not enough resources to meet the needs of the NHS. Therefore, the State must be efficient. And the State must punish families, businesses, and individuals less fiscally. Because the State constantly pretends to lower taxes. But, miraculously, the collection always goes up. Because between its own life and that of families and businesses, the State always chooses itself. Because the great glory of finance ministers is budgetary balance.

Do we have to go do an internship in Norway or Sweden to explain what transparency is, and where the state spends our money?

No, what we need is a rational allocation of national resources. The country has limited resources. When we consider that the National Health Service already absorbs roughly the same amount as the total revenue collected from income tax, and when we consider that, on top of this, 4 million Portuguese people already have private health insurance, we have to ask ourselves what we are doing with healthcare management in Portugal. These are the problems we need to solve. We could easily go to Sweden. Because Sweden is a country organized according to major political guidelines established over the decades by the Social Democrats. They are part of a large national consensus. In Portugal, nothing can be debated. Because being against taxes is being right-wing. I, for example, say that taxes are crippling our growth prospects. Many people accuse me of being right-wing. And they continue to waste money on inefficient systems. A state that is largely captured by vested interests. And they call this redistribution policies. What am I supposed to do?

Are you worried about being called right-wing?

It annoys me.

Why?

Because I'm left-wing.

What does it mean to be left-wing or right-wing when discussing the future of the country? And he didn't even mention the lack of transparency.

You're probably right, there will certainly be a problem of transparency. But most of the biases in the functioning of the Portuguese economy, where we feel that there are private sectors, which are genuinely rent-seeking sectors, that are spared from competition, that are attractive sectors for the State, don't need transparency because they are in plain sight.

Today, on the day we are conducting this interview, the big news is that the government wants to cut costs in healthcare, and all the political parties have attacked the Minister of Health.

I'm not in Parliament, but if I were, I would say the same thing I'm saying here. I said this a thousand times when I was sitting there. I said it to the Minister of Health of my time, a socialist, who came to say that the Basic Health Law was in line with our ideological guidelines. And I said: 'Madam Minister, we have to improve the health indicators, not the ideological indicators.' I said this when Marta Temido took office.

He continues to be moved by Portuguese politics. Having his own ideas, what is the reason he never ran for the leadership of the Socialist Party? And when his mentor [Mário Soares] asked him to do so.

But isn't what I'm doing useful?

What I'm asking you is why you never thought you could be the man for change? Is it because you don't control the system, because you don't know how to deal with lobbies, is that it?

I'm not cut out for power. And I don't aspire to power. Like everyone else, I have my personal ambitions. This isn't one of my personal ambitions.

Do you have no political ambitions?

Yes, of course I have political ambitions. But my political ambition is not to assume a leadership position in a party. At this moment, I don't see that the conditions exist in the country for me to do anything worthwhile or useful. I prefer to do what I'm doing, which is to speak to the country and to public opinion. To speak with complete freedom. I'm not a member of parliament, I don't have to answer to anyone.

Is CNN your platform now?

No, it's not just CNN , it's the media in general, it's social networks, with this enormous opportunity that digital technology has given us, it's not comparable to a parliamentary platform. The comparison doesn't even make sense. In a parliamentary platform I don't have the possibility of addressing the country, which is what I've been trying to do. With greater or lesser success.

And are you freer now?

To tell you the truth, I've always been free. It's just that I used to have a lot more hassles than I do now. Now I have none.

What role did Pedro Nuno Santos play in the Socialist Party finishing third in the last legislative elections?

I don't want to comment on that.

Alternatively, then. Could Pedro Nuno Santos ever want to return to the leadership of the Socialist Party?

I don't know, I'm not an oracle, I have no idea.

Did the legacy of the "geringonça" (left-wing coalition) determine the end of the Left Bloc?

No, the Left Bloc is in this situation because it was born from unrepeatable circumstances. It was born from the left's revolt against a Socialist Party led by António Guterres, which was very conservative. It grew with three strong figures: Louçã, Rosas, and Fazenda. And it entered a phase of decline, which is what has been developing until now. It had nothing to do with the left-wing coalition. The territory of the Left Bloc will always exist. It is the territory of non-communists who are not satisfied with the Socialist Party and who cannot vote for the right. It will always be a protest vote within the left-wing coalition. Or a vote against within the coalition.

What do you think about the ban on wearing burkas in Portugal?

Like any moderate, I have a tiresome opinion. It's necessary to reconcile people's freedom, which has constitutional protection, with certain requirements dictated by security, another value that also has constitutional protection. I find it completely understandable that, for security reasons, one cannot wear clothing that covers everything except the eyes, or even including the eyes, because with a burqa there are no eyes. But that has nothing to do with the reasons that dictated this discussion. Dr. Ventura doesn't care if it covers the eyes, the nose, the right ear, or the whole face. He only wants to incite xenophobic sentiments against a religious minority in Portugal. That's why I don't like the discussion. Now, if you ask me if I think one should be allowed to walk around with their face covered, I think not. From a security point of view, that represents a threat.

Is André Ventura a genius who manages to get everyone to follow him? Is he the one calling the shots?

He doesn't score any points. He's a highly 'media-friendly' character. And the media outlets enhance him. Because he's highly media-savvy, isn't he? If you made other politicians say the same outrageous things he says, they all become incredibly interesting. If they all said the same outrageous things as Ventura and there was only one who said sensible things, the media-savvy one would be the sensible one.

Can you imagine yourself in Parliament, as a party leader, or parliamentary leader, whatever you want to call it, debating with Sebastião Bugalho, in the role of prime minister, or party leader, or vice versa?

I sincerely hope that never happens.

Why?

Because we are too good friends.